22 thoughts on “The Health Edge: Fellow Travelers – Microbiome and Health

  1. Marianne

    Thank you for this podcast, which was super informative for me.

    From your podcasts, I’ve concluded that butyrate produced by the gut flora and beta hydroxybutyrate (BHB) produced as a byproduct of ketosis are both “silver bullets” for health. There’s obvious overlap in nomenclature between butyrate and BHB. Is there any relationship or synergy between these two subsances? Does producing butyrate in the gut have any impact on the level of ketones circulating in the blood or vice versa? Does my producing ketones, say by intermittent fasting, have any impact on different families of gut bacteria and if so what?

    Thanks for highlighting and clarifying these important concepts.

  2. Mark Pettus

    This is an excellent question! From my review these molecules have very similar biologic function e.g. mitochondrial fuel and epigenetic effects, despite having different origins:
    1. Butyric acid is structurally similar to Beta hydroxy butyrate (4 carbons with an added hydroxyl group at the 2nd carbon). As noted, it is a byproduct of bacterial fermentation of MACs (microbiota accessible carbohydrates). It also has an important role as a signaling molecule for GLP-1, an important regulator of fat burning, insulin sensitivity and appetitie (more GLP-1 is better).
    2. Beta-hydroxy butyrate is only seen with fasting or diabetic ketoacidosis and is produced in the liver, starting as acetoacetate.

    While there are so many health benefits from states that produce both beta-hydroxybutyrate and butyric acid, it is unclear to what extend they impact the gut microbiome. There are concerns that prolonged low-carb, ketogenic states (e.g. < 20 gms carbs/day) might deplete healthier strains of the biome (jeff leach's research) as insufficient MACs become available.

    My personal feeling is that this is complex and likely varies considerably from person to person. If someone were benefiting from a prolonged LCHF ketogenic lifestyle and started to have inflammatory manifestations, i would consider following a stool CDSA to assess for interval gut biome changes.

    I hope this sufficiently answers your questions.
    Grateful thanks for your support. Mark

  3. Marianne

    Thanks for your reply, Mark.

    It seems like these substances (butyrate and BHB) are at the epicenter of some really profound processes. Again and again, I see abstracts with conclusions to the effect: “Silver bullet — we need to come up with a pharmacologic intervention that captures this amazing benefit.” Yet our bodies can produce these substances! Sigh, there’s no money in that, except pay dirt for the patient. Sure seems like this topic is BIG. But for your podcasts, I likely would be clueless about any of this. Huge thanks for the amazing information (“news you can use”) you are providing “where the rubber meets the road” (cutting edge research AND practical applications).

  4. Caroline Collard

    Thanks for asking that question Marianne and for your response Mark.
    I had also read about some health experts’ concerns regarding a long term LCHF diet (i.e. high fat being defined by these experts as more than 30-40%) having a negative impact of some important gut bacteria.
    Their views having been formed as a result of Jeff Leach’s work. That had me concerned a little because my LCHF diet is more around 70% plus good fats. I then read more about Jeff Leach’s work and now think that the amount of fiber in one’s diet is a major factor and therefore influence on the percentage of fat consumed.
    I’m still left unsure as to what might be the “optimal” healthy fat percentage for someone who is apparently healthy. Given that nutritional ketosis usually requires close to 80-85% good fats…is that too high?

    • Marianne

      As Mark said, the way all this plays out probably varies a lot from individual to individual. There are so many factors, small and large, that comprise a lifestyle, and of course genes and pathways are unique — it is very hard to tease out causation and even association for any particular individual.

      I’ve had a fascinating time “playing around” with these various concepts Mark and John have highlighted in their podcasts. I tried a ketogenic diet for two weeks, then pulled an NMR Lipoprofile blood test and ascertained my small dense LDL had skyrocketed (apparently this happens for a small percentage of people, of whom I am one). So I stopped that and used other means to be ketogenic part of each day (IF and LCHF and exercise) and was very pleased with the results. Then I started focusing on feeding the microbiome too and coincidentally broke my ankle and had to stay off it so could not exercise. Further, in my effort to ensure great nutrition while my ankle heals, I temporarily stopped IF. Interestingly, one of the key markers I monitor (a vision/acuity test on my app that I do daily) is better now than it has ever been. This makes me think attention to my microbiome may be VERY important for me. For sure I will continue nourishing it as best I know how.

      These podcasts have been invaluable in getting some very important concepts for health on my radar screen. I’m sure I’ll continue learning, both information in general and also my own unique characteristics, and tweaking my practices on an ongoing basis in perpetuity.

      • Caroline Collard

        Thank you Marianne for sharing your experience with all this. Interesting, and worrying though, that your small dense LDL increased significantly on a ketogenic diet. Other than the blood test, did you feel “bad” on your nutritional ketosis two-week trial? Would you have suspected something wasn’t quite right without the test?
        I am planning on doing a keto trial in the next two weeks as I have blood tests coming up at the end of the month so that will be interesting. I certainly find it much easier to stick to a fat intake around 70% (with net carbs at 50g) than I do with fat at 80-85% and net carbs at 30g or less. I love IF (17-19 hrs) with a Bulletproof coffee (in my case, 1 Tbsp ghee and 1 Tbsp of XCT oil) after exercising in the morning but I’m wondering if that doesn’t interfere with the true benefits of having nothing but water or herbal tea during that IF window. I would be interested in knowing your experience with IF…especially following your keto diet trial.
        I read the “Obesity Code” by Jason Fung which was a bit of an eye opener for me in terms of the benefits of regular 24-hr fasts (as much as three times a week for someone who doesn’t need to lose weight). I’m not sure if you’re familiar with his work. I might have come across his name for the first time through one of John and Mark’s podcast.
        My ultimate interest in nutrition is optimal health and, like you, I really enjoy all that John and Mark share with us.

        • Marianne

          Yes, I have followed Dr. Jason Fung’s work since hearing him speak at a LCHF conference in San Diego in July 2016 and have read the Obesity Code.

          I talked with another speaker at that conference, Dom D’agostino, and learned that he too has high small dense LDL-P when following a ketogenic diet.

          I didn’t feel so good during the short time (2 weeks) I was on the ketogenic diet and didn’t think it was sustainable for me, given that I didn’t have a health issue that was compelling me to do this. I knew from 23andme that my genes predispose me to high LDL cholesterol and was concerned that the macronutrients of this diet were not optimal for me and also that it was hard to fit in the micronutrients I need.

          Dr. Rhonda Patrick, who does the FoundMyFitness podcasts, says that eating or drinking anything except water breaks the fast because that substance will be metabolized in the liver. So whether one should eat/drink anything other than water during a fast may turn on the goal. If the concern is “just” stimulating insulin, perhaps this deviation from the straight and narrow doesn’t matter.

          I started doing 16-18 IF every day (working up to that over time) by skipping breakfast. It worked really well for me. I tested my blood ketones with strips and confirmed that I was mildly ketotic, especially if I exercised at the end of the fast. As mentioned, I’ve temporarily tabled that in an attempt to promote healing of my broken tibia and fibula.

          I have read about the metabolic benefits of longer fasts touted by Jason Fung, Thomas Seyfried, and others and did two or three three-day fasts at quarterly intervals. Then I learned that Dr. Stephen Phinney has concerns about fasts longer than 48 hours. “There are many studies by competent researchers that show 48 hours into a normal fast when you’re not eating protein, gluconeogenesis is going to break down some protein, accelerating between days 2 and 4.” He said he has five studies showing a consistent result. He also has concerns about what longer fasts do to resting metabolism. Long story short, I decided not to do fasts longer than 24 hours, out of abundance of caution. At the recent program in Costa Rica, John too expressed reservations about longer fasts.

          I test, test, test and compare results with different family members. It is crystal clear that we’re all very different in terms of what may be optimal for health. One size does not fit all, which presents a huge challenge in the face of a medical system that pushes a monolithic Standard of Care.

          It sounds like you’re doing well in figuring out your MO. Thanks for sharing parts of your journey.

          • Caroline Collard

            It’s all so very interesting and I’m curious to see if I end up with the same issue as you did following a ketogenic diet. Although there’s a part of me now that seriously wonders how feasible it is to follow such a strict regime. Like you, there’s no therapeutic reason why I would pursue this way of eating other than if it proved positive for my health.
            Having tried it for just a few days I share the challenge of getting enough micronutrients and resistant starch with such a low percentage of net carbs. I wonder if the small dense LDL would have stabilized if the adaptation period had been prolonged beyond the two weeks.
            I wish you the best with recovering from your injury. It sounds like you’re very active so I hope you can get back to your usual activities soon.
            Thanks again for sharing as much as you have.

          • Marianne

            John raised a similar issue re my small dense LDL-P (i.e., keep it up and the number might decline).

            Small dense LDL-P is generally recognized as the lipid particle that is most damaging to health. Mine shot up from a low 154 to 841 (third quartile) two weeks into the KD, then after I changed my practices dropped to below 90 (the lowest denomination LabCorp shows). Dom D’agostino said to me in San Diego something like, “We just don’t know the implications, and I’m not going to take chances.” There was no compelling reason for me to continue the KD, and there was the possibility I was playing Russian Roulette. So it was a no brainer decision for me to terminate the KD. Again, I knew from 23andme comparisons with other family members that my genes regulating LDL cholesterol are unusual. Looking at averages just doesn’t work for me, because there’s often a rare outlier and that could be bad if I happen to be one of them.

  5. Peter

    Marianne and Caroline, hello and thanks for posting your experiences. I too have been an avid fan and follower of Mark and John from day one. While I’ve had mostly very positive overall improvement in health by steering away from SAD, employing LCHF and other suggestions, like you I have also run into some road blocks: namely VERY high lipid numbers post LCHF. This is often referred to as a “hyper responder” to LCHF.
    While not as panicked as my conventional doctor (can you say SAD, and SADr.?) whose only suggestion was return to statins, I was thrown by this result and searched hard for answers.
    After 2.5yrs deep educational dive into Ancestral health and functional medicine principals, one of the first myths to fall was the diet heart hypothesis and that cholesterol causes CAD. But that doesn’t necessarily mean extremely high lipid numbers can be ignored.
    My digging suggests that this response is much higher than “a small fraction” of the LCHF population. I think its really more in the 12-15% range, but unfortunately this also appears to be new territory in terms of causation and absolute risk. On the causation side I have found some real eye openers that suggest cholesterol (circulating) is a far more reactive/adaptive system than conventional models allow. If that is true then more frequently spaced testing, to establish a mean and a trend, would be more appropriate than a once a year snap shot to diagnose and treat high cholesterol. The risk side is harder to pin down as the current studies do not control for LCHF, so we are in N=1 country (aren’t we always?).
    I’d like to share some resources I’ve found that might help you find the root cause, or at least shed some light on your own levels.
    1. Dave Feldman has been doing some pretty amazing N=1 experiments and his blog/website is a deep mine of relevant information, here’s an example from his “hyper responders FAQ” tab:
    “Hyper-Responder FAQ
    [January 2017: Heads up — this FAQ was originally written over a year ago and I’m currently in the process of setting up a new one given new research and data.]
    What is a Hyper-Responder?
    The term, “hyper-responder” has been used within the ketogenic / low carb, high fat (keto/LCHF) community to describe those who have a very dramatic increase in their cholesterol after adopting a low carb diet.
    This increase can be anywhere from 50% to 100% or more of their original, pre-diet cholesterol numbers. There is quite a bit of debate as to how much or how little this affects risk for atherosclerosis and general heart disease given keto/LCHF is very anti-inflammatory. (See Research and Links)”
    Link to his site here: http://cholesterolcode.com

    2. Chris Kresser has a dedicated ebook/course on this: http://highcholesterolplan.chriskresser.com/?_ga=1.162858748.1522480956.1461858790

    3. Thomas Dayspring provides an interesting theory on a possible ketone feedback mechanism, presented by another hyper responder with some good data: http://bjjcaveman.com/2014/11/17/ketosis-and-high-cholesterol-according-dr-thomas-dayspring/

    4. Diet Doctor.com is a huge and growing resource (that, like HE does not accept any corporate funding, crowd sourced now by 31K+ members, I’m one). This is from their website regarding hyper responders:

    “What to doIf you get a non-healthy lipid profile on a low-carb diet there are a few things to consider, in this order:
    Stop drinking Bulletproof coffee (butter, coconut fat or MCT oil in coffee). Don’t drink significant amounts of fat at all when you’re not hungry. This alone can often normalize cholesterol levels.
    Only eat when hungry and consider adding intermittent fasting (consistently reduces cholesterol levels).
    Consider using more unsaturated fats, like olive oil, fatty fish and avocados. Whether it will improve your health is unknown, but it will lower your cholesterol. And as it’s abnormally high that may be enough of a reason.
    Finally, if step 1-3 is not enough: Consider whether you really need to be on a strict LCHF diet for health reasons. If a more moderate or liberal diet (e.g. 50–100 grams of carbs per day) can still work for you, it will also likely lower your cholesterol. Just remember to choose good unprocessed carb sources (e.g. not wheat flour or refined sugar).”

    Hope you find these resources helpful, I have and will be retesting soon to see if I’ve put a dent in my numbers. We can learn a lot from each other, as The Health Edge so beautifully demonstrates!
    In Health,

    • Marianne

      Peter, thanks for taking the time to share your knowledge and experience. I hadn’t come across Dave Feldman and will look at his work. Through a combination of practices similar to what you suggest (including eliminating exogenous ketones like MCT oil), my blood test results are good (even very good compared to my historical results). Again, I emphasize that specifically the component that concerned me was small dense LDL-P. BTW, I get NMR lipoprofile blood tests often from LabCorp through Life Extension Foundation (which is having its annual blood test sale now — one can “stockpile” orders and use them throughout the year).

      Another good resource is Dr Sarah Hallberg, who runs a metabolic health practice at Purdue and has zeroed in on this issue that you term “hyper responders”. Check out her video on YouTube, LDL on LCHF, which concludes with these ultimate questions:

      • Does the rise in LDL-P in a minority of patients on a LCHF diet represent an increased risk of vascular disease in that percentage of patients where we see this?

      • Does LDL-P residence time go down thereby making a high particle number less relevant?

      • Can we predict who will have a rise in LDL-P?

      • Do all patients eventually have a decrease in small dense LDL who follow a LCHF diet?

      • How long after dietary changes should we be checking lipids, or should we wait for weight stability (so we don’t freak people out if weight loss is the cause for higher lipids)?

      • Is insulin a double edge sword for some?

      I just came across a talk that looks interesting posted 2/16/17 at http://ketotalk.com/2017/02/54-keto-talk-mailbox-blitz-special-edition-cholesterol/ with Jimmy Moorer and Dr Adam Nally. Haven’t listened to it.

      I’m always fine tuning but am okay at the moment with my practices and results. Out of abundance of caution, I consulted with one of the functional medicine gurus on cholesterol who Mark and John mentioned. He isn’t concerned about my LDL (which again has come down a lot) but is rather focused on my high HDL. He’s quick to say he doesn’t know if this will lead anywhere, but we’re both interested in pursuing that a bit further to see if and how it might relate to my risk for an eye disease.

  6. Caroline Collard

    Thank you Peter and Marianne for sharing such great resources and your personal experiences. I have a lot of work to do to catch-up to you two when it comes to getting more educated on all this. I thought I knew quite a bit but it was clearly just the tip of the iceberg!

    There’s still a part of me that often reflects on the fact that as interested as I am in the whole subject and science of it, nutrition shouldn’t be this complicated. I am now very curious about my next round of blood tests and hope that I don’t have to give up Bulletproof coffee as part of my daily IF (or not as it happens!) regime as there’s no doubt I’ve developed a bit of an addition to it!

    I am so grateful to John, Mark and you both for your helpful contributions.

    Very best,

    • Marianne

      Caroline, I too constantly get reminded that I’ve just touched the tip of the iceberg or the outer layers of the onion re all this. A lot came together for me in February thanks to attending the week-long nutrition program in Costa Rica that John led with a cooking instructor. As I prepared to travel all that distance, I was kind of kicking myself, asking myself “Why am I doing this?”, but the experience proved to be invaluable for me.

      Ancestral nutrition is not complicated; modern day modifications are what has thrown the system out of kilter. One has to disavow a lot of dogmas. Of the wide range of ancestral approaches among different groups of people, no one is better than any other. It’s a matter of sourcing (quality) the macronutrients properly (and not fretting so much about the proportions of fat/carbs/protein), eating the requisite micronutrients, and not displacing those with bad stuff, most notably PUFA seed/vegetable oils, sugar, refined flour (I’d say grains generally), and trans fats.

      I have coffee every morning whipped up in a blender with raw goat milk. As mentioned, I don’t add exogenous ketones these days (e.g., MCT oil) in the belief this contributes to spiking my small dense LDL-P. It would probably be fine to add grass-fed butter, but I don’t. I get plenty of good fat in my breakfast. I haven’t been doing IF (except 13 hour fasts overnight always) since breaking ankle bones a month ago. I’ll probably start up again soon with 16-18 hour IF most days and the only hard part will be giving up the goat milk in my first-thing coffee.

      One very important change to my diet since attending the Costa Rica program is that I eat leafy greens at three meals a day (and mix it up re kinds and raw vs cooked). They’re loaded with micronutrients.

      Mark and John’s podcasts have been invaluable in getting me to this point in my knowledge and practices re nutrition. I am constantly reminded that there’s a vast ocean of knowledge still for me to learn about and that the best thinking is constantly changing. I respect Mark and John for taking stands on issues, knowing that some of those will change over time.

      • Caroline Collard

        Hi Marianne,

        How lucky that you can get raw goat milk! I don’t know if I would tolerate it since I know I do much better without raw goat cheese but I’ve never had the chance to try raw goat milk. Goodness knows I’ve tried several different types of raw goat cheese because I just didn’t want to believe that I felt better without it!

        I got my 23andme report in March and ran it through Genetic Genie. I’m curious to know which genes came up to make you realize that your genes predispose you to high LDL cholesterol? Was that information available from your 23andme raw data or did you run it through another report provider?

        I am also going to look into Dr. Rhonda Patrick as you first mentioned her and then Mark did as well in a recent podcast. Just got to find more time to listen and read to all this great information!

        Very best,

  7. Marianne

    I had a grandfathered 23andme test from 2013 (before the FDA clamped down on 23abdme providing medical reports) so got all the medical reports provided back then, including LDL, HDL, and cholesterol reports (among many others). We linked everyone in the extended family (6 of us) — I have the worst genes by far for LDL cholesterol, as shown by some charts my brother prepared with all of our data.

    There’s forest and there are trees. It’s great to get all the detail (trees), but ultimately you have to stand back and ask yourself what is the big picture. How you feel is important, as is knowing what blood tests to monitor and what optimal ranges are.

    John and Mark emphasize again and again that we should look to ancestral patterns for guidance, which I believe is excellent advice. Ancestral people didn’t eat vegetable/seed oils, sugar, flour, trans fats, and processed foods, and they didn’t have food available all the time. Focusing on nutrient dense foods (especially leafy greens) and eating only at meals and practicing IF (with restricted eating windows) makes total sense to me. A ketongenic diet does not make sense to and for me — I don’t feel good, my blood tests are way out of whack, and query what ancestral peoples did this all the time. There are a lot of people out there selling exogenous ketones . . . . Fasting has been done/tracked for a very long time. My body shifts into and out of fat burning to my satisfaction from IF and exercise — I don’t have cancer or epilepsy or anything that mandates high ketone levels. Moderation in all things . . . . first do not harm.

    Rhonda Patrick is great (FoundMyFitness, accessible on YouTube, is her interviews with terrific researchers; she also does a lot of podcasts just by herself). Her podcasts are a nice complement to TheHealthEdge podcasts, which acquaint me with a topic, and then she provides a deeper dive and different perspective.

    • Caroline Collard

      Those grandfathered 23andme reports were clearly far more useful than what is provided now. I certainly think that having the ‘tree-view’ and not just the big picture ‘forest’ has been beneficial for you to piece together the results of your blood tests and trials with KD.

      It can sometimes be difficult to truly allow ourselves to ‘listen’ and ‘feel’ what our body is telling us when we’ve been convinced that a certain way of eating or exercising is deemed optimal. I sometimes try to think back to the days when I ate a non-processed – technically healthy with lots of leafy greens – vegan diet and I’m pretty sure I felt great…at least for the first three years. It’s not a diet that suited my triathlete husband (as you can well imagine) and that’s when I started questioning the drawbacks of eating that way long term. But at the time, unlike him, I felt awesome eating that way.

      The bottom line is that no matter how one chooses to eat there are common elements (staying away from sugar, processed foods, flour etc and eating lots of varied leafy greens) that are key to health. How much quality protein (and type) and how much fat (and type…even amongst the ‘good’ fats) is the harder piece of the puzzle. And what is most optimal for one individual versus another requires a bit more experimenting – notwithstanding the fact that what’s optimal today may not be optimal in a few years’ time. So just when you think you’ve got the ‘trees’ figured out the landscape changes on you!

      So we’re all very fortunate to have experts like John and Mark who are willing to speak candidly about the pros and cons and share their knowledge and clinical experience so readily.

      Thank you again for sharing, it’s greatly appreciated.

      • Marianne

        FYI, promethease does give LDL, HDL and cholesterol reports. (I recently ran my 23andmeraw data through Promethease again, as its database of SNPs/genes is continually updated.)

        Re protein, John recommends eating at least 3 daily servings with 25 grams per serving and said he’s concerned with getting enough protein (and also potassium) with 16 hour or longer IF and KD for long periods. He is focused on avoiding sarcopenia and said that the elderly population undereats protein.

        • Caroline Collard

          I will run my 23andme data through Promethese to get the LDL info – thank you.

          Doing IF 16+ hrs makes it difficult to eat more than two times a day. I have been following the 0.8 g of protein per kg of lean body mass which for me is just under 50g. According to some, a higher protein intake becomes detrimental to health in terms of activating IGF-1 past a safe level. It’s not until I started closely measuring the protein I was eating that I realized I used to easily consume double or more than that.

          I also read that IF can be hard (i.e. not a good thing) on women which is what attracted me to Bulletproof coffee IF…which I now realize is not IF in its true sense. I’m also someone who likes to exercises first thing in the morning and having a Bulletproof coffee right after made it possible for me (maybe just a psychological thing) to not eat until lunch time. Not sure if I could exercise and have nothing after other than a herbal tea or water.

          Blood tests are being done on Wednesday so should have all the results soon after. I am very curious to see the NMR lipoprotein change after consuming a diet 70-80% fat for the last 6 months.

          • Marianne

            Just realized that I listened to only the first 13 minutes of the March 8 podcast, Protein, IGF-1 and Health (during which time there was nothing said about IGF-1). Now I’ll circle back and listen to the rest.

            (I had asked John in Costa Rica about IGF-1 in the context of protein intake and got the impression he wasn’t concerned about high levels, but that interchange was brief and my quick takeaway may not have been right. It’s hard to frame questions properly without background info, and for sure I need that on IGF-1.)

          • Caroline Collard

            That 0.8 g per kg of lean body mass did not come from John. I will have to go back to that podcast as well but I believe he focused on what he told you in Costa Rica i.e. 25g three times a day as a rule of thumb. I think that the 0.8 g formula is from the likes of Dr Mercola who really stresses the importance of quality animal protein but not too much. It’s one of the questions I have for John next time I see him.

            But again any generic formula may not be optimal for everyone and I’m not sure how you go about knowing exactly what is right for you. I think IGF-1 can be measured and like many things in the body we need just enough but not too much!

            Interestingly, there is also a view that if you don’t consume enough protein your immune system can be impaired. I’m not sure if it’s totally coincidental but I have stuck to eating between 50-60g of protein per day for the last year (which as mentioned earlier I think is a lot less than I used to consume) and I have been suffering badly with allergies for the last two months – in Florida while we were there and it just carried on when we got to Canada 10 days ago. So much so that I’m keeping Kleenex in business! So could it be down to the fact that I have been consuming too little protein? It’s certainly something that has crossed my mind in the past week.

          • Marianne

            Over and over, I’m struck by the impossibility of trying to ascertain causation vs correlation. So many factors make up a lifestyle. Some things that we take for granted may be making all the difference. That’s no doubt a key reason why (apart from through Mark and John’s podcasts) it’s so hard to get clinicians to recommend practices and also why dogmas can live on long after they’re disproven by a preponderance of evidence.

            I just watched a short (for her, just 15 minutes or so) YouTube video by Rhonda Patrick on IGF-1 in which she talked about the trade-offs between growth and longevity. So many things involve trade-offs generally, and as you say everyone is unique. Once one gets comfortable with all the uncertainties, it’s a blast to try to optimize a lifestyle as best one can.

          • Caroline Collard

            I think we have to smile at the level of detail that we’re concerned with when it comes to our nutrition when compared to the average person who just goes about the business of eating without a second thought!

            I’m leaving for the UK to visit my husband’s family this coming Friday and I’m sure that they think I’m beyond weird for not wanting to eat greasy fish and chips out of newspaper from the corner shop or partake in their favourite Chinese take-away! But ‘weird’ lives on as best as it can!

            Here’s to the next great podcast!

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